I leave the tough decisions up to the Internet.

I can’t stop thinking about real estate, Internet. Specifically: should we stay in Brooklyn, or should we beat a shameful retreat to the suburbs? I need you to tell me.

We bought our two-bedroom apartment a few years back for a quarter and some old gum wrappers, and it is now worth billions. While this is lovely, it also means that if we hope to buy a larger space in our neighborhood—well, we can’t; it’s not even worth talking about. Our space is not quite large enough for us, and will definitely Not Work if we have another child (NO I’M NOT PREGNANT). With the crazy inflation of real estate prices in NYC, we will only be able to afford a lean-to on the banks of the Gowanus, and Henry and his imaginary sibling will develop extra limbs from all the fumes coming off of the fetid waters. So that’s probably not the best option.

So it comes down to this: either we stay in our place, which in addition to being on the small side is dark and loud (we’re on the first floor on a main avenue—in the summer people walk up to our window and ask for money. We’re like an ATM! An ATM for crazies!), or we move to an As Yet Unnamed Suburb. We’ve found a couple of areas that seem to suit our needs: we could probably afford a smallish house in one of these towns, which are close to the city and artsy/liberal. However (need I add this?) they’re Not Brooklyn. We would not have the library, the museum, the park, and the Botanic Garden all within a few blocks of our home. We would have to own a car (gasp!). On the other hand, we would have a backyard. And a decent school district. And amenities within walking distance. On the other hand I will be dead inside (probably). My youth gone, I will spend the days watching soaps and drinking Chardonnay; when Husband arrives from the city I will greet him at the door with pies made of Play-Doh and cigarette butts. Isn’t this what you suburban types do? Yes?

In a nutshell, I am driving myself bonkers. One moment I think I can never leave Brooklyn how could I even think such a thing and then in the next moment I’m dreamily picturing mornings with Henry and Scott in a sunny breakfast nook instead of our dank living room/dining room/kitchen that is periodically infested with vermin. I would give up a lot to never have to worry again about stepping on a waterbug on my way to the bathroom. And don’t try to tell me about the cicadas or grasshoppers or whatnot you have in the suburbs--they are not the same thing.

Basically what it comes down to is there are many pros to moving, and one big con: we wouldn’t live here anymore. We feel superior to you non-Brooklyn people. Now you know.

Opinions. Yours. Let me have them.

EDITED TO ADD: Before I get more defensive comments: do I really have to say that I'm being facetious when I say I feel superior? Do I have to say that? I guess I have to say that. Sigh.

Comments

[laura]

I already live in a community that is actually nothing more than a collection of suburbs, linked together by vastly inadequate roads. We moved from the "city" where my job was located to an adjacent "city" that offered nicer houses with bigger lots at better prices. Now I have a 1+ hour commute every morning and there are days I do nothing but stare at blogs at my desk and scheme ways to end the madness of this commute. But I am spoiled by having never had more than a 20 minute commute before... anyway... make good and sure that your lifestyle can be supported by your new community because doing something other people tell you to do (because they say it is empirically "best" for your family) but that conflicts with your gut instincts.. well... all the peaceful Saturdays, pretty flowerbeds, and gleaming hardwood floors in the world (which I do love) are not making up for my insane commute.
And this insanity does have a negative effect on my parenting and my weight and a lot of other things. It is hard to make time for life when three hours every day are spent in a car. Trust your gut-- I wish that I had.

[Alice]

Hmm. Commute in this instance is not a concern. My gut is changing its mind every minute. Next opinion!

[Your Delusional Nephew]

No! Please! Stay there while you still have a chance! It's HELL here (the suburbs)! All we do is sit around and think about how great our life would be if we lived in the city. Really, trust me. If you can stay in brooklyn, do it. Plus, you don't want to live on Long Island. Ugghhh! All with our over-population and segregation! Did you know that nassau county is the most segregated county in the country? It's true. Some guy told me.

[Alice]

Who said anything about Nassau? No way are we moving to LI. Next opinion!

[wix]

i can't imagine what you must think of those of us who deign to live in texas, but i assure you that there are freaks--of the kind you might want to invite over for tea, not the kind who panhandle at your window--who live in places other than brooklyn. it is true that you may have to actively seek out such folk in a different location, but then you can feel superior to the other, less enlightened people in your zip code.

[Liz]

I would think long and hard about schools. We live in a relatively urban area with really terrible schools. We moved here when our son was just 1, and figured private schools would be great. Well, they have been great, but we sooo underestimated the total cost. And we only have the one child. If you wind up with the imaginary offspring, too, well, private schools for two children are more than the billions of equity in your purchased-for-a-quarter ATM/apartment.

On the other hand, you probably won't get back in to the city as often as you might think, especially over time. So do choose a liberal/artsy (or whatever) kind of place that really suits you.

Good luck - tough decision!

[Kelly AKA Fat Housewife]

I live in Syracuse, not even close to a NYC or Brooklyn type thing. HOWEVER, I have lived in the country and in the "city".

While the country offers things like no neighbors for 50 miles, loud parties and bonfires....the closest store is well 50 MILES away.

The city sucks because I can watch the neighbors undress (well, they are old so...you know) and we have an itty yard.

That being said I would not move back to the country. My kids would do the same things I did (pout of sheer boredom) and if I discuss those things I could be subject to prosecution.

In the city I am able to take them places, do fun things and all of that. I would suggest that you stay in the city but look around and see if anything with another room meets your fancy.

But seriosuly the answer is move to Syracuse where you could live in the nicest neighborhood and send the kids to a boushy private school (for life) with the same money you would use for a DOWNPAYMENT on a house in NYC.

[E]

Alice,
As a past NYC'er (ok, on the UES, but STILL) I'd like to comment. 3 1/2 years ago the Hubs and I fled the big city in search of a more sane lifestyle and the ability to live in more than two rooms for less than $2800 a month.
We moved to Central PA (granted, a little farther than you're thinking) We live in a mid-sized, quite bucolic college town.
Do I miss NYC? Sure, sometimes! Do I love having a three bedroom house with a basement to hold all of the stuff that I compulsively buy on the Web? (note: also did this while living in said 2 room NYC apt.) YES!
Did I weep copiously the first time that I walked into the spacious, CLEAN, well-lit CVS here (and multiple times afterward) and realized that not only were the cashiers not fighting with each other (and the customers), but they were actually happy to be there and to ring up my chapstick? Absolutely.

Living in the city is wonderful, but don't forget that you will still be living closeby and can make trips in periodically to enjoy culture, restaurants and such.

Good luck!

[FrumDad]

As an expat Brooklyn-ite (although I was 10 when we left), I want to weigh in heavy on the side of the Suburbs.

Yes, there's a certain soul-less-ness out here sometimes, but I'm pretty sure you can get that in only minimally varying flavors everywhere.

Speaking for myself as a kid, I have to say that it was a majillion times better growing up with lawns and other kids and riding my bike and exploring the woods and "the pit" and "danger hill" and "the pond" and "that rock where Craig C fell and knocked three teeth out."

We would for real leave the house around 4 (after school) and wouldn't show up again 'till just after dark. Adventures and misadventures and long boring days watching the ants or just doing nothing. I don't know how true that is now, (putting on my parent hat), with what seems to be the uptick in weirdo predator types, but it's still, I think, more true in the 'burbs than in the city.

Speaking for myself as a parent, I have to say that I've never felt a critical need that couldn't wait the thirty minute drive to the city. I mean, okay, I can't get Dipsy Doodles and a beer at the corner deli at 4 in the morning. But at the end of the day that's no great loss. And the museums and stuff... well, even if we lived in the city I'd only ever go there on a weekend, and all the burbs mean is that it's an extra half-hour schlep and a little more money, but no real impediment.

The big suck for the burbs is really the commute issue. Two parts to that, too -- there's the suckage of traffic and waste of time and frustration, etc., and the more important thing about getting home early enough or leaving late enough to spend some time with the little 'uns. But you figure it out. (I hope.) And besides, you said commute's not a prob.

I used to be a city snob, too (even at 10, when we moved). But at the end of the day I am happy I grew up bridge-and-tunnel, and happy that I'm raising my family out here, too.

I'm sure there are those who will disagree, but that's what makes a horse race. Or something.

--FrumDad
[Google Wangle: Orthodox Jewish Father]

[kate]

OK, you asked for it.

I have never (EVER) lived anywhere but the suburbs. In fact, my husband and I are (if I count right) roughly 3rd generation suburbian. (Of course, way back then it wasn't a suburb at all--it was a day-long journey into the country.) I have always had this knee-jerk reaction to the nose-in-the-air, oh-so-superior city attitude and their disdain for suburbanites. Can you blame me? So, to aid in your decision-making:

There are people in the 'burbs who did not go to college simply to get their MRS. Many suburbs have rich, thriving cultural lives including museums, theaters, galleries, and music. My friends and I have engaging conversations about life, religion, philosophy, politics, culture . . . not (just) about pie recipes, planting bulbs, or HOAs (that's Home Owners Associations). In my burb, I have gorgeous bike paths that can take me all around the metro area and the state! My kids will be able to walk to school and never cross a street. We're culturally diverse.

Yes, I drive a lot. I work in the next town over, but have to drive there. We don't have public transit--but some 'burbs do. There are an overabundance of mini vans. And, yeah, I have this nagging desire to compete with my neighbors' houses, lawns, (eventually) kids . . . But, I can't imagine NOT living in the suburbs.

Like finding the right ANYTHING, you have to look at fit. Not all 'burbs are alike. You'll need to consider those things and their importance to you: diversity, amenities like shopping, parks, activities, cost of living, transportation. But, rest assured there are all sorts of lovely communities out there that just might offer everything you're looking for! In fact, I'm just reminded that in some 'burbs you can now live in a centrally located "downtown" loft/apt. and have a little of both worlds. Anyway . . .

[Alice]

What we're considering is probably what most people would think of as a city. This is not country living by any means. Just to clarify. Keep the opinions coming!

[FrumDad]

Wow. Two comments cam in while I was *typing* mine. Kelly -- I don't think she's talking about moving to the boonies. I know the Syracuse area, and as I'm sure you're aware, even the city part is a little bit boonies.

Alice is talking suburbs. Like Hoboken or (hopefully) a little further out. Lawns, etc., but probably within 30 miles of New York City.

--FD

[Alice]

Kate, I love you. Bring it on! I can take it!

[Wenchie]

I live in the Chicago suburbs. I don't drink during the day. I don't watch daytime t.v. I'm not dead inside. I'm not inferior to anyone. I don't pine for the company of 3 million other people.

I have a backyard and a dog. Most of my neighbors are really cool and friendly. My daughter can walk home from a friend's house at 10:30 p.m. I'm only a half hour from the Loop. I get out quite a bit to lots of cool places, and some of them -- gasp -- are in other suburbs!

If your gut is telling you that leaving Brooklyn would be like cutting off your arm, then stay. But if your gut is telling you that you really like feeling superior to a living location you don't know much about, please explore. It is what you make of it.

[KC]

Hi Alice,

I feel you on the difficulty of this decision. I live in Greensboro, NC--clearly not the kind of relocation you're considering, but bear with me--we have a nice little house with a yard and storage and we live on the edge of a 5 mile bike path/park system. We can also walk to our local baseball stadium and to downtown--restaurants, shops, and (my lord!) even a decent coffee shop (shout out, Green Bean). But what makes the GSO feel like home to us is our friends. We have a great community of like-minded people (I very much regret not taking a picture of our street, lined as it was by Kerry signs as far as the eye could see) and, because this is a college town, we have decent literature and art. Now, there are things I Hate About The South, just as there would be things I would hate about the North, East, West, and/or the Moon. But what allows us to keep on keepin' on down here is that we've made a good life for ourselves. And that, I firmly believe, is something we could have done anywhere. So, a long comment all to say this: I think you can make your own happiness, wherever you are--it is, in manys, a choice, not a coincidence of location. Good luck!

KC

[SuzanH]

That is a massive decision. We decided to find a great school district first and foremost, because the thought of paying $12-13,000 per year in tuition was too much to bear.

We ended up in the whitest city in America (shout out to Livonia, Michigan!) which is an unending source of shame, but this way our daughter could go to a great school for free, and we have our little house on our quiet street and don't have to worry about the crazies walking in unannounced (which happened in our apartment). And our block and our daughter's school are very diverse, so that helps.

Our daughter is an only child without even the thought of a phantom sibling, so I like the fact that she can play with the several kids her age who live on our street, and I can just toss them all outside when the noise level escalates too high.

And we can zip into Detroit or Ann Arbor in about 1/2 an hour, which isn't too bad, so we have lots to do. And car time with your kid or spouse is a great way to just talk without an agenda. Plus, seriously, get the XM satellite radio, and you will want to LIVE in your car.

Ultimately, as so many have said, your gut will tell you. If you're tired of living somewhere small and dank, sunshine is awesome. But if the idea of shedding your urban skin is too painful, I totally understand.

Good luck.

[Amanda]

I live in California, where except if you live in the Haight, there is little distinction between suburb and city. I live in a condo within walking distance of a giant six-lane auto row. It's the worst of both worlds.

But? My advice is to go big. I have FOND memories of our first two-bedroom apartment. We had moved from a tiny studio and it just felt HUGE. It did WONDERS for our marriage. WONDERS. It was a two-story apartment, which meant my husband could be UPSTAIRS! Alone! By himself! On an entirely different FLOOR from me! I didn't have to look at him EVERY. SINGLE. SECOND. Which made me actually want to look at him more often. Similar to what happened when we finally bought a king-sized bed.

[Mrs. Kennedy]

New Jersey's nice. What exit are you thinking of?

[Kelly]

I'm feeling you. When my husband first brought up the idea of moving from the city to the burbs, I was mortified and dead-set against it. Moving out of the city would make me into one of the people I made fun of!! And what about being able to walk to the grocery store, book store, and my favorite bars?!

Anyway, I thought I'd hate it, but instead I love it. Seriously, I can't describe the sheer pleasure of hanging out on the back porch drinking mint juleps or hot toddies (depending on the weather) while the kids play in the yard. No vermin infestations, no panhandlers you have to be polite to no matter how aggressive they are (or how broke you are) because they know where you live, no worrying that the TV or stereo is too loud or being irritated by someone else's noise. Niiiiice.

[Robert]

As someone who lives in the burbs and rues the decision daily--stay put. Sink money into your too-small Brooklyn haven and enjoy it. My 2 cents' worth, anyway.

[Caryliz]

Ok, I've been lurking for months, but you've made me laugh so hard so many times during my otherwise-miserable pregnancy that I feel I owe you, well, my $.02 at least!

I grew up in the suburbs. It sucked, sucked, sucked. In the 20 years since I left the 'burbs I have lived in Minneapolis, Cambridge (MA), London, Brooklyn, Northfield, MN, and Eastport, ME. As far as I'm concerned, urban neighborhoods bear more of a resemblance to small towns than the suburbs, which seem to combine the worst of city and country living. In the 'burbs, you have more space, but less community. You might be able to afford more bedrooms, but have you checked out those property taxes?! And you need a car for EVERYTHING. Most suburban developments I've been to -- and lived in -- don't even have sidewalks. What does that tell you? You will not just be Henry's mom, you will become his chauffeur. And your husband's chauffeur, too, if you want that car around during the day while he's at work. (Or else you have to buy two cars, if you don't want to be trapped in the house.) You are, in all likelihood, going to have less of a neighborhood than you have in Brooklyn; many of the more affordable suburbs have lost their downtown areas and everyone shops at the mall and "big box" stores. Living in a place where you can't walk to the bank, the grocery store, the library, public transportation or a place like Tea Lounge is going to make your world smaller, not larger. And where are your friends? If they are carless and living in NYC, it's going to be harder to visit. I mean, the cyber community is great and all, but sometimes you just need a little face time with someone else who can remember when the first Star Wars movie came out (even if we were in the 3rd grade at the time!). I realize that many people out there are not going to understand my negativity on this topic, but I just think that if you have lived in a lively Brooklyn neighborhood for long enough to have bought your apartment for gum wrappers and a few loose shoelaces (as I did back in 1993), the adjustment to suburban living is going to be way more significant than you think, and will require you to give up many things you have come to know and love -- and that undoubtedly make your life easier. (Hey, if you didn't love the package you have in Brooklyn, you wouldn't have stuck around this long, right?!)

My husband and I are in the ironic predicament of owning a Park Slope apartment that we couldn't afford to buy in today's market, despite the fact that between us we make 6 times what I was making at the time I bought it (not that that's saying much!) This galls him more than it does me, as he grew up just a few blocks down the street (in a house that his parents RENTED for 40 years, but that's another sore subject so we won't go there). We are looking at selling our apartment for billions (well, relatively) and moving further out in Brooklyn to buy a house -- Kensington, Ditmas Park, Brooklyn College area -- and we figure we're not the only ones; if these neighborhoods don't have the cachet of a Cobble Hill or Park Slope yet, they'll get there. (Let me tell you, when I moved to Prospect Heights in 1991 I paid my rent in cash, I blew a fuse if I tried to iron and listen to the stereo at the same time, and I'm pretty sure I was the only legal US resident in the building. The outside door to my building didn't even lock. My mother was beyond horrified. Now I can't afford to live on that block...think about it!)

[Jill]

I recently read the book Morningside Heights, which is, more or less, all about this very same problem. Apparently the only real solution, as proposed by the book, is to inherit large sums of money. Helpful, no?

[Leah]

I lived in Brooklyn then I moved to Virginia for grad school. It's so pretty here! The air is so fresh! Whenever I come back to Brookly, which I do regularly, I'm torn between how dirty it is and how expensive everything is and the exciting, happening vibe. Bottom line: in my opinion, if you move out the suburbs, you will not miss Brooklyn more than occasionally, and you can certainly visit occasionally.

[Steph]

I was in your exact position a couple of years ago (except for the fact we lived in Toronto). I loved being in the city with all of its culture, restaurants, Museums etc. I was terrified to move to the burbs - BUT when my husband I started to look at what we could afford in the burbs compared to our condo it was pretty staggering. Four bedrooms! A pool! A big backyard! I have never regretted our decision for one second. Also, guess what? The DO have great restaurants in the burbs and there is culture etc. I can let my toddler play in the backyard without fear of him stepping on a needle!
Whenever I need an infusion of the city - its a 20 minute drive. Just imagine your son riding his bike with friends in freedom and playing on swings in someones backyard or having a barbeque. Do it. You won't regret it. I promise. (Also no icky bugs that crawl out and die in living room).

[halloweenlover]

I am also normally just a lurker, but I sympathize with the situation, so decided to weigh in (even though you are overrun with conflicting opinions).

The hubs and I just moved from NYC in August. We lived in Murray Hill and we took the plunge and bought a little house in one of the closest suburbs to Boston. It is still on the subway and everything. A 10 minute walk for us to get to the subway. The town also has a little town center with coffee shops and clothing stores and adorable boutiques that are fun to visit. I did have a bit of an adjustment period, I admit. I was terribly sad for a couple of weeks at the thought of having to drive to the grocery store and not being able to walk to buy dog food or visit the farmer's market. But I have also been ecstatic at having my own backyard and front yard and loads of space. Especially loads of closets, oh the beauty of closets, really. And a basement and a garage. I love my little house and my neighbors are pretty nice and fun. We get into the city when we feel like it and we stay home or go into our town center when we are feeling lazy.

I would sit down, I guess, and figure out how often you do the things that are available in Brooklyn. I remember that I was traumatized to leave NYC at the thought of not having central park and the museums and all the restaurants, but I finally realized that I didn't go as much as I thought I did, and it was more the idea of leaving that bothered me. It is such a personal decision. I also don't have a munchkin yet, so I can't weigh in on schools or kids, although our schools are great and that is one less thing to worry about.

Good luck!

[Hilary]

Delurking to tell you how much I LOVE living in Jersey City given how much I DREADED leaving NYC. We moved when I was two months shy of hitting my 10-years-in-Manhattan anniversary and it was very sad. But now I love it here. It has a city-ish vibe with good restaurants, a pretty cool arts scene, beautiful brownstones. True, you have to go a little further to find *your* favorite places, but then you feel like you've made this exciting discovery. And you can get so much more space for your money and maybe even a backyard and a garage. And you're maybe 20 minutes from the city. It took me a while to get over the whole "I live in New Jersey" thing (and this from a girl who grew up in Kansas). But the quality of life and knowing all the families on the block while not giving up diversity and culture has really changed my mind. I can now say I live in New Jersey and I'm proud.

[halloweenlover]

I am also normally just a lurker, but I sympathize with the situation, so decided to weigh in (even though you are overrun with conflicting opinions).

The hubs and I just moved from NYC in August. We lived in Murray Hill and we took the plunge and bought a little house in one of the closest suburbs to Boston. It is still on the subway and everything. A 10 minute walk for us to get to the subway. The town also has a little town center with coffee shops and clothing stores and adorable boutiques that are fun to visit. I did have a bit of an adjustment period, I admit. I was terribly sad for a couple of weeks at the thought of having to drive to the grocery store and not being able to walk to buy dog food or visit the farmer's market. But I have also been ecstatic at having my own backyard and front yard and loads of space. Especially loads of closets, oh the beauty of closets, really. And a basement and a garage. I love my little house and my neighbors are pretty nice and fun. We get into the city when we feel like it and we stay home or go into our town center when we are feeling lazy.

I would sit down, I guess, and figure out how often you do the things that are available in Brooklyn. I remember that I was traumatized to leave NYC at the thought of not having central park and the museums and all the restaurants, but I finally realized that I didn't go as much as I thought I did, and it was more the idea of leaving that bothered me. It is such a personal decision. I also don't have a munchkin yet, so I can't weigh in on schools or kids, although our schools are great and that is one less thing to worry about.

Good luck!

[julia]

I've talked myself out of doing what I really wanted several times because "it didn't make sense" or, in the case of housing, because "no one in their right mind would never pay twice as much for half the living space." Well, maybe I'm not in my right mind and I don't make sense, but I always regret not following my gut, even (maybe especially) when I didn't follow it because cold reason told me not to.

While you'd still be you, and there would be other people like you who had also moved to the suburbs for similar reasons, I think you would probably regret your decision. If you have always been urban, and it means a lot to your identity (which is sounds like it does) to be urban, I think you ought to make the sacrifices and stay there.

Are the pros of the suburbs the kinds of things that really affect your fundamental quality of life? Only you know for sure ... sorry, baby crying ...

[Nobody]

We expected better schools when we moved from Brooklyn, but are disappointed at what we've found and have gone private. It is hard to figure out the schools before you move, because everyone in the town has some interest in telling you they are great.

We like the suburbs fine, but I think I'm the person you would be trying to avoid by staying in the city so I'm not sure my opinion helps much.

[sara]

hey, alice-

what do i know, but you asked, so hear this...pick the city or pick a lovenest in costa rica, but don't pick the suburbs. at the risk of sounding like the worst mother in the world, think about what you would do if you didn't have kids and why you'd do it.
now, remember that henry and imaginary sibling(s) will blossom wherever you take them...they're loved and they've got a dazzling mamma, (and father, i'm assuming).
don't cut yourself out of the calculus because you think it will do a service to your kids. give henry what you would want for yourself...i think that's a pretty good rule of thumb.

plus, we'll miss you. and i don't want to think of you crying in the parking lot of your local strip mall because the only bookstore is a barnes and noble, and henry's favorite restaurant is applebee's. that sounds elitist. sorry. but seriously. think about it.

[nb. author grew up on a california beachside avocado farm and now chooses to live in brooklyn with husband, son and some rodent "friends."]

[trixie]

QNS? it's sort of a compromise. a little bit suburban, less expensive, parts of it subway-accessible.

[Scott]

Ex-it? What does it mean, this, how you say, ex-it?

As one-third of the pieces on the board (in fact, I am the king...KING! I wear the pants in this fam-- oh, shit...bishop! Bishop coming! Defend me--!), I've got to say it's not the culture I would miss, nor the restaurants (we order the same damn burritos three times a week while not strolling around the BMA); it's the steeped-in-humanity feeling you can only get in a city. You walk out your door, ZA-BAM! there's humanity, demanding engagement, asking for change, or maybe wanting to share the Good News!

So it's rarely your type of human coming at you-- at least there's a sense that you're sharing the place with others. The resulting airborne mist of basic respect (and whizz) is something I never get when I go back to the suburbs. Here, you get to be near 2,000 people a day and not have to care about a single one of them, except so far as to not punch them as they pass. Is this so in the suburbs, fans of my wife?

Or do you GET to punch them as they pass? 'Cause if you do, I'm already pulling the car around, so be ready.

[Dan]

You're on the right track -- find the most nearly urban suburb you can. In addition to the house/better vermin/yard/sunny breakfast nook, etc., its advantages will be that (1) it has its own identity as a town, instead of just being a bunch of living rooms; (2) it isn't some decentralized sprawl requiring you to spend hours in your car; (3) the people who live there don't all look exactly alike; (4) a lot of your neighbors are people you'll be glad to know. We live in such a suburb of Chicago, and are very happy with the tradeoff we made when we left the city.

[Scott]

Ex-it? What does it mean, this, how you say, ex-it?

As one-third of the pieces on the board (in fact, I am the king...KING! I wear the pants in this fam-- oh, shit...bishop! Bishop coming! Defend me--!), I've got to say it's not the culture I would miss, nor the restaurants (we order the same damn burritos three times a week while not strolling around the BMA); it's the steeped-in-humanity feeling you can only get in a city. You walk out your door, ZA-BAM! there's humanity, demanding engagement, asking for change, or maybe wanting to share the Good News!

So it's rarely your type of human coming at you-- at least there's a sense that you're sharing the place with others. The resulting airborne mist of basic respect (and whizz) is something I never get when I go back to the suburbs. Here, you get to be near 2,000 people a day and not have to care about a single one of them, except so far as to not punch them as they pass. Is this so in the suburbs, fans of my wife?

Or do you GET to punch them as they pass? 'Cause if you do, I'm already pulling the car around, so be ready.

[Scott]

Ex-it? What does it mean, this, how you say, ex-it?

As one-third of the pieces on the board (in fact, I am the king...KING! I wear the pants in this fam-- oh, crap...bishop! Bishop coming! Defend me--!), I've got to say it's not the culture I would miss, nor the restaurants (we order the same damn burritos three times a week while not strolling around the BMA); it's the steeped-in-humanity feeling you can only get in a city. You walk out your door, ZA-BAM! there's humanity, demanding engagement, asking for change, or maybe wanting to share the Good News!

So it's rarely your type of human coming at you-- at least there's a sense that you're sharing the place with others. The resulting airborne mist of basic respect (and whizz) is something I never get when I go back to the suburbs. Here, you get to be near 2,000 people a day and not have to care about a single one of them, except so far as to not punch them as they pass. Is this so in the suburbs, fans of my wife?

Or do you GET to punch them as they pass? 'Cause if you do, I'm already pulling the car around, so be ready.

[Tamar]

I can completely empathize. I grew up in Manhattan. Moved to Park Slope in my 20's. Heading over the bridge with my stuff felt like moving away from civilization. After I got over the shock, I loved Brooklyn. It was city but not as in your face as Manhattan.

Then we moved to Los Angeles. I'll gloss over that part, it's irrelevant to this. But now we're contemplating a move back to the NY area. We can't afford a nice place in Brooklyn and we too have to consider schools etc. We're looking at two towns in NJ; one in particular has fabulous schools, an easy commute into town, and is very liberal/artsy. I worry about the sting of suburbia but from everything I hear, this town will feel more like home than home does. I'm content with the idea for now. And a friend who knows the area really well (he's in construction) says this town suits me and my liberal, artsy city slicker self like a glove.

Then again, I'd be moving from Los Angeles, not brownstone Brooklyn. So there's that. But I think there's an awful lot to be said for house-plus-yard-plus-peace. As long as the town has a soul and isn't a cookie cutter bedroom community.

I'm curious to hear your specific town choices.

[Christy]

I've been lurking a while, but thought I'd get in and give an opinion since you asked for it.

We live in the 'burbs and love it. It's safe, clean, and green. We love our neighbors. There's good schools. Yes, you do have to drive to get your errands run, but I would think you'd get used to that. Getting to the city for museums and shows is pretty easy on the subway (which you also have to drive to).

I grew up in an apartment closer to the city than I am now, but still not right in the city. I hated it. I always wanted more space, more green, to be able to play outside. I only got to do that when I went to my friends houses in the 'burbs and I was jealous.

But I've never lived in Brooklyn or even been there. I'm sure it's a great place and you're really comfortable there. If that's the way you're used to living, it's hard to change. If you already have friends that live outside the city, they are probably the best source for specific info about that area to help you decide if you want to live there.

We can relate our experiences, but in the end only you know what is right for you and your family.

[Scott]

Friends of 'slippy, I didn't just post three times-- I was rejected by some kind of weird automated message that claimed to be blocking "negative comments from scripts." I am not a script! A man is not a piece of fruit!

Sorry. Not an e-diot. Really.

[Alice]

Tamar, I think we're thinking of the same place! But I don't want to say it because it is Such A Cliche.

My husband is so overenthused that he can't stop posting. My comment is so nice I'm going to send it thrice, he cried out! Whee!

[sara]

and this makes 4 cents, but it seems like most of the "pros" of suburban life relate to personal comfort. when did personal comfort become the holy grail? it's just more american wickedness, i tell you!
and this kind of relates to your husband's post...when you stretch out on your overstuffed couch, you're less likely to go out and remember the rest of humanity. and come on, admit it, you secretly like the crazies asking for money at the window.
i kind of like knowing i only take as much space as i actually need, and as for lawns, ahem ahem, there's the "Great Lawn" as it called in central park and the "Long Meadow" in prospect park, so take that!

[anne]

i grew up in a suburb. i've lived in american cities and i live in a city now. i could never move somewhere that didn't have a bar stumbling distance from the door, a corner store i could run out to for the one basic ingredient, and a movie theater that wasn't a multiplex. i'm also very attached to public transportation and sidewalks. i find it difficult to imagine circumstances under which i would give those things up. so- i'm pro-city for myself. but i don't know whether a yard trumps a sidewalk for you.

obviously you need to do the pros and cons list thing (much advised, rarely actually executed). my family also does a thing of pretending that you've made one decision for a whole day, and then pretending you made the other decision for another day, and see which one gives you a knottier stomach.

thanks for letting us all weigh in on this...and good luck.

[Almost in D.C.]

Hi, Fin. I've been a lurker, but I just had to write on this topic. I grew up in the Virginia suburbs of D.C. When we first moved there, it was wooded and beautiful, but it soon became strip-mall central -- not much character or individuality. I didn't like it. But I knew I wasn't a full-on city girl -- I love almost every aspect of city life ... except the size and location of the dwellings. I need a little grass, a little sunlight, a little square footage. So as soon as I got out of school, I moved to Alexandria. (If you're not familiar, it's a city right outside of D.C.) It was the perfect solution to my problem. It's still expensive like D.C., but not as. There's still a commute to get to my downtown job, but not as (at all). There's still culture and entertainment and variety and cool shops, but we also have a 3-story townhouse that can contain all our crap. And the schools are much better (and just down the street). It's a happy medium.

[Anna]

Hi Alice,

My husband and I moved from downtown Portland (OR) to the suburbs last year and it has been both good and bad. Good- because we're not paying a ton for a home we can't afford and because we eat at home more often since the only restaurants in the suburbs are chains like Applebee's, Chili's, Denny's...you get the idea. The down side? We don't get to downtown Portland as often as we would like. Portland has a lot to offer and now I just feel like we're out of it. We used to be on top of all the "goings on" and be able to explore the city at our leisure. Now we have to drive half an hour and find a parking space and we, quite frankly, don't just go wandering around anymore because we need to justify that 30 minute drive. That part is heart-breaking but at the same time I'm glad that I live in a safe neighborhood with great neighbors, low taxes, low traffic, and a low mortgage. I'm torn- as you will probably be no matter where you end up!

[Jessica]

We were in a similar predicament to you recently, and we decided to move to the suburbs of a different city. We were living in the Washington, DC area and we moved to a suburb of Philadelphia. We were able to buy a much bigger historical home with a lovely yard, and financially it was a very good decision for us too. The keys for the selection of our new location were proximity to our family and the type of suburb.

I agree that many suburbs are horrible. But we sought one out that had a vibrant downtown we could walk to, easy transportation into the city, excellent public schools and town services, and a strong sense of community. I love the town we selected, but there were a number of places in our area that met those criteria. I think two things that really help make suburban towns livable: (1) age of the town, and (2) proximity to colleges. We live in a suburb that is about 200 years old. As such, while there are some new developments on the outskirts of the town, most of the homes are older and in established neighborhoods with big trees, sidewalks, etc. IMHO this makes the town not only architecturally more beautiful, but also more friendly and livable. Also, there are four colleges/universities in the township I live in, and there are many more in surrounding towns. I think having so many young people around leads to the vibrant downtown and great local restaurants and shopping. Also, it is nice to have all of the social, cultural and sporting activities associated with being in a college town, and it makes it easier to find qualified babysitters!

[emjaybee]

We grew up in the TX burbs, now live in Brooklyn. When the kiddo gets born, eventually, we'll have to go somewhere greener and bigger. I know there's the parks, but when I was a kid, someplace that wasn't already crammed with other people was my idea of fun, and it just doesn't happen here. If you're used to the horizon in rural Texas (flat, endless, devoid of anything but you and some cows) always having other people in sight gets a little stressful. A little isolation can be healthy, even though, yes, it's fun to be Confronted By Humanity outside your door. We've loved New York, it's been great for us, but some days it's just a claustrophobic, dirty place. I loved going barefoot as a kid, I would never be able to let my kid out of the house doing that here.

And there can be good food in the right burbs; and there are magical things, like humongous 24 hour grocery store palaces, with enormous aisles *not* crammed with drunks, junkies, and thuggish teens. I miss those every time my Orthodox neighborhood shuts down on Shabbos and I can't get a pint of milk for 24 hours, and the closest non-Orthodox grocery store is already closed. I don't miss commuting, but I miss being able to leave my coat in my car. I don't miss pollen allergies, but I do miss wildflowers. So there's the tradeoffs.

[Jean]

I vote for the burb. But not if you're going to be unfriendly about it.

[Jean]

By the way, I hope your thumb turned out ok.

[Tamar]

Alice, I wouldn't be surprised at ALL if we're talking about the same town! I'm heading there for a visit next month. We'll be staying with friends who know it really well, so we'll be getting an insider's tour, so to speak. If you want, feel free to email me and we can trade notes.

FWIW, to everyone else: this is not a chain-store mallrat town. I'm not even sure they have any fast food restaurants...

[Alice]

Well, it should go without saying that if we move to the suburbs, we're going to mug you. Or someone like you.

[Leah]

Yes! Move!
And your right...we suburban mom's do watch soaps all day while drinking our wine ;)
(I wish!)